Friends and guests in spiritual deconstruction and reconstruction
who have joined us on the podcast.
Also see the Spiritual Brewpub YouTube Channel
for videocasts of the most recent interviews.
REV. DEREK KUBILUS. Derek and Michael have an amazing conversation on the doctrine of hell and how Derek came to reject it as a mistranslated, misinterpreted, and illogical concept that totally contradicts God's love. Derek addresses these types of questions. Don't miss his insightful answers: *How are some people haunted by hell? *What are the major glaring contradictions of the notion of a hell created by a loving God? *If Christians truly, really, honestly believed in hell and truly, really, honestly loved their neighbors, how would they live their life? *What are the most interesting examples of mistranslations of terms referring to hell in the NT? *What does Jesus mean when he says “everyone will be salted by fire?” And much more! Grab Derek’s book, Holy Hell: A Case Against Eternal Damnation.
DYLAN CRUZ. Meet the Tattooed Theologian. Dillon Naber Cruz experienced trauma in his childhood and during his service in the Marines. After coming to grips with his PTSD and how the US military wages war and trains recruits, Dillon went back to the teachings of Jesus and addressed the cognitive dissonance he felt. Join Dillon and Michael as they discuss how Dillon became an aspirational pacifist and why redemptive violence---the belief that violence can be used to bring order to society---doesn't work in the world. If you're weary of cycles of violence, the dehumanization of "the other," and retributive methods of solving injustice, you'll appreciate Dillon's insights into restorative justice. He has a challenging and hopeful message, particularly in light of today's wars and conflicts. See his book, Theological Musings.
DAVID HAYWARD. David Hayward is the "NakedPastor." He is a cartoonist, author, and former charismatic/evangelical pastor who deconstructed his faith and rebuilt a new refreshing spirituality that still embraces the wisdom of Jesus... but without the religious baggage. Michael and David discuss their journeys and David's unique experience. A psychologist says of David's latest cartoon book, Flip It Like This, "A beautiful exploration of deconstructing your conditioned beliefs to become more open, compassionate, and heart-centered. I recommend this book to anyone on their own healing journey." Enter into this fascinating conversation and learn how David's cartoons "...are for those who have been battered or infuriated by the church and who long to see it change…”
DANIEL BANNOURA. Daniel Bannoura is a Palestinian Christian who grew up in the West Bank near Bethlehem and taught at Bethlehem Bible College. Now a PhD candidate at Notre Dame, Daniel joins Michael to discuss the Israel-Hamas War, the wider Palestinian-Israel conflict, and his Palestinian Christian roots that go back centuries to the time of Christ. We also discuss a Christian response to the war and the challenge of putting into practice Jesus’ central teaching on love, especially loving our enemies. There's so much context and history to learn here. A very illuminating interview during this critical time. Please also see these important documents: An Open Letter from Palestinian Christians to Western Church Leaders and Palestine-Israel Resources.
KATHY SHIHADAH. A Christian ex-evangelical, Kathy is married to a Gazan Muslim with family in Gaza. She joins Michael to share her personal story, spiritual journey, a multi-faith marriage, and insights on the plight of Palestinians. We share empathy for all who are suffering in the Israel-Hamas War, both Israelis and Palestinians, and denounce the Hamas attacks & taking of hostages. Yet Kathy's and her Muslim husband's family's perspective brings critical context and helps explain the drive behind Hamas, the Palestinian struggle, and their legitimate grievances. Learn a workable way of peace through restorative justice rather than retribution and war. A case for Israel stopping the bombing and pursuing a negotiated settlement that provides security for both Israelis and Palestinians. See Kathy’s blog.
DAVID GUSHEEE. American democracy is in danger. How do we protect it from authoritarian reactionary Christianity? David Gushee joins Michael to discuss his new book, Defending Democracy from Its Christian Enemies. Gushee makes a robust case for a renewed commitment to democracy on the part of Christians—not by succumbing to secular liberalism, but by drawing on Christianity's own best traditions. Any concerned Christian or post-evangelical will walk away with eyes wide open to the dangers of our current form of political engagement. Listeners will gain insight into what democracy is truly meant to be and why Christians once supported it wholeheartedly—and should do so again. David also shares his take on the Israel-Hamas War as a Christian ethicist..
JANET KELLOGG RAY. Why do so many evangelicals deny vaccine science? Why are so many suspicious of the science behind climate change? Why do most evangelicals reject theistic evolution? Michael talks to Janet Kellogg Ray to get answers. This evangelical antipathy to modern science turned deadly during the COVID-19 crisis when white evangelicals snubbed precautions and vaccines. Herself a science educator and Christian who attends an evangelical church, Ray explains how we got here and how to fix it. We talk about everything from the creation-evolution debate and intelligent design theory to the evidence behind the efficacy of the Covid vaccines, including how to debunk many conspiracy theories. Check out her book, The God of Monkey Science and Facebook page.
THOMAS JAY OORD. Tom Oord, scholar, theologian, and professor at Northwind Seminary, joins Michael to talk about his new book, The Death of Omnipotence and the Birth of Amipotence. They discuss whether God is all powerful or not and what is a better, more "biblical", and philosophically logical way of looking at divine power. Amipotence is the uncontrolling love of God. It's a beautiful notion that fits scripture, human experience, and logic better than the traditional view. It also deals a deadening blow to “the problem of evil.” Moreover, Tom shares some details of two heresy trials he had to endure and third that’s coming his way! Learn more at thomasjayoord.com.
JIM PALMER. Special guest Jim Palmer joins us on The Spiritual Brewpub. Jim is an author, former mega-church pastor, a master of divinity graduate, a humanist chaplain, a certified spiritual director, and the founder of the Center for Non-Religious Spirituality. Jim and Michael talk about Jim's deconstruction and rebuilding, the evangelical experience, the needs Jim saw that led him to found the Center for Non-Religious Spirituality, and some of the content that he provides to help people coming out of toxic faith. This was an incredible interview!
LACY BEAN. Laci joins Michael in a fascinating conversation about her work as a Certified Trauma Recovery Coach (CTRC) focusing on helping people overcome religious trauma. Learn her story how she got caught up in an evangelical cult ministry, started deconstructing, and finally caught a vision to help people recover from the same trauma she went through. Don't miss this one! Laci is awesome! To learn more about Laci's coaching and recovery services, visit: https://lacibean.com/ You’ll also find helpful articles with titles like, “Leaving the Church Saved Me,” “Setting Boundaries During Deconstruction,” “Am I Still Christian Post Deconstruction?”, and “No, I’m Not Grateful for My Trauma.”
KAREN SHOCK. Michael and Karen have a conversation about her story described in her new book, "Too Much and Not Enough: Sacred Thoughts Said Out Loud." Karen shares with a refreshingly brutal honesty about her experiences growing up under the influence of toxic theological systems that left her doubting her sanity, her identity, and her voice. Like many men and women who have been hurt by the Church they loved, or betrayed by the pastors they trusted, Karen’s story is filled with disappointment and grief. BUT, as she writes from her heart and makes room for healing, she discovers a deeper hope, and a surprising amount of grace waiting for her—and all of us—on the other side. To learn more and grab Karen's book, visit: https://www.karenruthshock.com/
DESIMBER ROSE. Author, poet, spoken word artist, and former pastor of The Restoration Center and the The Rock Worship Center (both in South Carolina), Desimber Rose joins Michael to talk about toxic church culture. It’s time to expose the dark underbelly of the church and Desimber is equipped to do it. She’s also your guide to healing from the spiritual wounds of church hurt. Michael and Desimber talk about her experiences and her book, The Church Can Go to Hell: Overcoming the Brokenness, Bitterness, and Bondage of Church Hurt. She’s talking about the institutional church, folks, not all communities of followers of Jesus’ love ethic. Learn more about her and her book.
HEATHER HAMILTON, author of Returning to Eden: A Field Guide for the Spiritual Journey, joins Michael on the podcast to discuss her story deconstructing evangelicalism and rebuilding a surprisingly refreshing new paradigm. Heather has a knack for sharing spiritual and theological breakthroughs, including her mystical experience that snapped her out of a nervous breakdown. Learn new ways to view the Bible based on literary and historical facts, a positive spin on myths, and how to get out of the False Self trap and find your True Self. Learn more at: www.returningtoeden.com
ANGELA HERRINGTON - Angela Herrington joins Michael to discuss her work as a Faith Deconstruction Coach, workshop presenter, and author of a forthcoming book, "Kicking Toxic Religion to the Curb: Deconstruct Your Faith Without Losing Yourself." Hear about Angela's journey and the abundant content she has developed helping people deconstruct conservative Christianity and evangelicalism. Also, the many examples that both Angela and Michael bring up of harmful beliefs and practices. Do you find yourself asking, "If Jesus is love, why do so many Christians hurt so many people?" You'll learn how to uncover the answer to that question, how to overcome religious trauma that you may have experienced, and how to rebuild a healthy faith that brings peace. Learn more at: angelaherrington.com
MASON MENNENGA - Mason Mennenga joins Michael to discuss his journey surviving Veggie Tales (an evangelical children's animation franchise), an evangelical mega church and its theology, and how he came to question it all and discover a liberating and more historically-honest faith. As a podcaster, YouTuber, and aspiring theologian with an MDiv, Mason has some really valuable, simple and profound content that helps people deconstruct toxic theology and rebuild a healthy faith or new theory of life. To see or listen to his material, visit: masonmennenga.com
BRAD JERSAK - Brad Jersak joins Michael to discuss his latest book, After the Embers: Faith After the Great Deconstruction. Their conversation includes Brad's deconstruction journey, both his support and critique of today's mass deconstruction, and examples of historical deconstructionists like Voltaire, Kierkegaard, and Dostoevsky. He also shares how Simone Weil's take on the problem of evil "saved my life" as well as signposts and guides that help people find authentic faith after deconstruction. This is a critical discussion on where popular religious deconstruction is going today and how to navigate it. Learn more and find his books at: bradjersak.com
JENNIFER GRACE BIRD, PhD - Biblical scholar Jennifer Grace Bird joins Michael in a fascinating conversation about the importance of knowing original meaning and thinking for oneself when it comes to the Bible. Jennifer shares her insights found in her book "Permission Granted: Take the Bible into Your Own Hands" and her forthcoming book, "Marriage in the Bible: What Do the Texts Say?" Folks, you have permission to examine the Bible with an open mind to both critique it and decide for yourself what's inspirational. Learn why it's more respectful to the Bible to approach it this way and some fascinating examples of why the misogynist attitude toward women in the NT is not reflected in the original texts. Find more content and videos of Jennifer's work here: https://www.jennifergracebird.com
MARIA FRENCH - What does post-Christian mean? According to Maria French, it doesn't automatically mean post-Jesus or post-faith. Join Maria and Michael as they discuss why the ideas in Maria's book (Safer than the Known Way) are so critical to the conversation about deconstruction. The community of post-evangelicals, or even those who are still evangelical but disillusioned, will benefit to hear how Maria's journey offers this lesser known path—outside what we might think a destination would be after conservative Christianity like progressive Christianity, agnosticism, or atheism—but a path for us who still believe in mystery and connection to the spirit of life, but who feel trapped by old ideas and constructs. Learn more about Maria and find her book at www.mariafrancescafrench.com
DAN HENDERSON - Dan joins Michael to discuss his book, Confessions of a Recovering Evangelical, which chronicles his journey of alienation and frustration with traditional evangelical Christianity. Many like Dan are "Nones" and are often traumatized by the transition from a rigid religious world view to a more humanistic open one. They are also usually harassed by family and former friends. Drawing on his many years experience as a former Christian private school teacher, Dan shares how he gave up narrow Bible beliefs, harmful theologies, a gay-bashing attitude, the evangelical behavior-police badge, and racial discrimination to germinate and grow a new, more authentic faith. See danhendersonauthor.com
ROB SCHENCK - Rob Schenck had at least three conversions. One, to Christ, two to a highly politicized faith, and three from the Religious Right back to Jesus' teachings. Michael and Rob have a fascinating conversation about his journey and how evangelicals turned their backs on Jesus' love ethic by justifying outlandish gun rights and using Jane Roe (Norma McCorvey) of "Roe v. Wade" as a trophy in the abortion culture war. You don't want to miss this riveting conversation about guns, the 2nd Amendment vs. the 2nd Commandment, the controversial anti-abortion/pro-life organization Operation Rescue (that Rob and Michael used to be a part of). Learn more at revrobschenck.com including about his book, Costly Grace: An Evangelical Minister’s Rediscovery of Faith, Hope and Love.
TIM RYMEL - It all begins with a question. For Tim, it was Can you be a Christian and be gay? Tim Rymel spent nearly 20 years emphatically answering no to that question. Born into the fundamentalist, Pentecostal Christian faith, he went into the ministry at 15-years-old, pleading with God to make him straight. Hear him share his incredible story on the podcast and his really important critique of the “Ex-gay” movement and “conversion therapy.” Check out his two books that address these issues: Going Gay: My Journey from Evangelical Christian Minister to Self-acceptance, Love, Life, and Meaning and Rethinking Everything: When Faith & Reality Don’t Make Sense.
J. STEVEN PAUL, author of “In Search of Christian Origins: A Timeline of the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly.” , joins me on the podcast to share a long, fascinating, eye-opening historical journey. There is the accepted, often-repeated version of Christian history—and then there’s the real story. Steve Paul uncovers the little-known details of the world’s largest religion. He has documented this fascinating history that reveals Christianity’s roots, its often-unknown and surprising traditions, and its influence on the world today. Hear how Steve got to the point in his conservative Christian deconstruction, where he began to study the origins of the Christian faith and popular theology that led him to document this incredible Timeline. Listen to the conversation!
When CHRIS KRATZER left his Lutheran roots, he became a pastor of evangelical and Southern Baptist churches for 21 years. Later, he got caught up in the intoxicating church growth movement. Eventually, after a long road of self examination and realization, he had a radical change of heart and mind that led him to walk away from it all. Hear Michael and Chris discussing Chris's evolution and revelations that showed him how God is portrayed in most evangelical churches--as a hating, violent, temperamental, murderous, codependent, and exclusive deity. And how he came to write, “Stupid Shit Heard in Church: And the Truth that Will Wipe You Clean.”
JOSHUA HARRIS became famous at 22 in evangelical circles after writing a book called, "I Kissed Dating Goodbye" that popularized the concept of "courting" as a "Christian" alternative to dating. Harris, a product of the conservative Christian homeschool movement, later became a senior pastor of a Sovereign Grace Ministries mega church (formerly People of Destiny). After embracing what appeared to him as an exciting church movement, he discovered its dark side. Observing spiritual abuse, manipulation, controlling leaders, and sexual abuse lawsuits, he ultimately became disillusioned, left the church, admitted his mistakes, and then announced he no longer considered himself a Christian. Join Michael and Josh in a fascinating conversation on how and why Josh changed his mind and what brought him to having deconstructed evangelicalism and wondering if faith should just be about loving your neighbor. Learn more at joshharris.com.
BECKY GARRISON - Feather ruffler and author, Becky Garrison, joins Michael to discuss American colonial history, Christian and other forms of satire, examples of secular spirituality in the Pacific Northwest, and certain virtues that we sorely need today. Becky is an investigative journalist who writes books on religious deconstruction. She's a former writer for the Christian satire magazine, The Wittenburg Door (you gotta check it out if you haven’t heard of it!). Becky has a fascinating life story and cites some great historical lessons learned in her latest book, Roger Williams' Little Book of Virtues. Williams is a distant relative of Becky and an American religious reformer of the 1600s who got kicked out by the Puritans. He was way ahead of his time in his fair and just treatment of indigenous people and ideas around freedom of conscious and separation of church & state.
KEITH GILES - Author of the best-selling “Jesus Un” series of books, including Jesus Unbound: Liberating the Word of God from the Bible, Keith joins Michael in a lively conversation about spiritual deconstruction and reconstruction, Keith's journey out of a Southern Baptist and Vineyard ministry, and a more authentic and historical way of viewing Jesus, the Bible, and Church. Keith was formerly an ordained minister who walked away from organized church over a decade ago to start a home fellowship that gave away 100% of the offering to the poor in the community. Today, he and his wife, Wendy, are part of Peace Catalyst International and Keith is a part of the Heretic Happy Hour Podcast.
FRANK SCHAEFFER - New York Times bestselling author, Frank Schaeffer joins Michael to discuss his journey out of evangelicalism and his newest book, Fall in Love, Have Children, Stay Put, Save the Planet, Be Happy. The book offers a passionate political, social, and lifestyle “blueprint” for changes millions of us know are needed to rebalance our work lives with thriving relationships. Michael and Frank discuss a new way of looking at the world that aligns with history and science and focuses on what matters most: the priority of relationships, connections, community, love, caring for the earth, and empowering the poor and marginalized--all things that Jesus taught and his earliest followers emulated. .
DAVID ARTMAN - Author, podcaster, and retired pastor David Artman joins Michael to discuss his book Grace Saves All: The Necessity of Christian Universalism. As a child, the first time David attended a church, after he walked out he told his mom, “That place is scary. I’m not going back.” Why? Because this church taught the doctrine of hell with a vengeance. As a young adult he saw a softer and intellectual side of Christianity in the writings of CS Lewis. But the doctrine of eternal damnation still loomed large. Listen to his story and the biblical, historical, and logical evidence he cites to make the case that universal grace is necessary: David Artman on the Necessity of Christian Universalism.
BART CAMPOLO - When Bart Campolo announced he no longer believed in God, it rocked his father's and family's world, as well as shocked the wider evangelical movement. Yet it also opened a new opportunity--to openly discuss the hard questions and problems with modern Christianity, particularly evangelicalism, but to do so in a respectful way. That's what Bart and his famous evangelical father, Tony, did. In their book, Why I Left, Why I Stayed, and the film, Leaving My Father's Faith, they foster a safe space to agree to disagree agreeably about faith and Christianity. In that spirit, Michael and Bart talk about how Bart evolved out of belief in God, why he calls himself a humanist, and what matters most in living one's life, whether one is a believer or not. Listen to Bart Campolo on Why I Left My Father’s Faith and learn more about Bart at bartcampolo.org
MARTIN PROZESKY - Martin is a research fellow on the faculty of theology and religion at he University of the Free State in South Africa. He studied theology at Rhodes and Oxford Universities and at the former Episcopal Theological School in Cambridge, Massachusetts. Author of six books, Martin shares his experiences growing up in the shadow of apartheid in South Africa and how he spiritually evolved to the point of researching and writing about Jesus as an ethical revolutionary. On the podcast, he shares with Michael his conclusions in his book, Honest to Goodness: A Spiritual and Ethical Odyssey, on evaluating conservative and liberal Christianity and an exciting idea called The Global Goodness Project. Find his books here: Author Martin Prozesky
DR. KIM O’REILLY - Kim is a professor of cultural and diversity studies and a teacher of conflict resolution, who grew up as a missionary kid in South America. So many are torn between their love for someone who is gay, and accepting or welcoming them, in the face of strongly-held beliefs against homosexuality. On the podcast, Kim shares how people can address the dichotomy of love and condemnation, sincerely expressed by Christians – and understand the pain experienced by gays and lesbians. Learn more about her at www.interculturalsolutions.net including about her book, We Love You, But You’re Going to Hell.
DR. DAVID SMITH - David is a philosopher and religion scholar at the Osher Lifelong Learning Institute at the University of Washington (UW). David grew up as a missionary kid (MK) in the world of fundamentalist Christianity. He gradually moved away from that paradigm and became a religious progressive/skeptic but not an atheist. On my podcast, David shares his journey out of fundamentalism, his insights into comparative religion, and how to talk to each other about religion in a respectful way. I especially loved the philosophical techniques he shares that help people more easily deconstruct from evangelical or fundamentalist Christianity. Learn more at www.beliefsandethics.com
WENDY FRANSCISCO - Wendy is a musician, writer, editor, animal-lover, mother, and self-described love heretic who was part of the 1970s/80s Jesus Movement. She is married to Don Francisco another popular musician from that era. She once had a website called "Mythbusters" that debunked common myths associated with conservative Christianity. On Love Heretic, she shares about deconstructing out of evangelicalism and pursuing faith absent abusive theology and judgmentalism, which can also show up on the spiritual left. Hear her on my podcast!
CHRISTY BERGHOEF - After meeting author Christy Berghoef and her husband Bryan at the Wild Goose Festival, I was fascinated when I heard she does workshops on Common Good Communications. Learned from lessons coming out of conservative "Reformed" Christianity, she developed material on common good, authentic curiosity, and identifying and avoiding toxic tribalism, which sadly is too common in our current religious and political climate. On the Spiritual Brewpub Podcast she shares her vision of focusing on common good in social intercourse.
JULIE ANNE SMITH - Julie Anne was once sued by her pastor for a half million dollars! Why? Because she uncovered spiritual abuse in her evangelical church. She later launched the Spiritual Sounding Board, a safe haven for exposing abuse, such as patriarchal theology, sex-abuse coverups in churches, domestic violence, and abuse among the Homeschool Movement. Learn the roots of spiritual abuse she uncovers on my podcast.
KEVIN MILLER - A documentary film producer, Kevin Miller, embarked on a journey to question, research, and rethink evangelical and fundamentalist theology. That led him to write and produce two noteworthy and provocative films, Hellbound? and JESUSA. They challenge all Christians and society to embrace a new paradigm on addressing evil through peacemaking, rather than retribution, violence, and threats of eternal damnation. Hear our insightful conversation on my podcast.
KATHEY ESCOBAR - Kathy Escobar is an unconventional pastor and a talented writer, speaker, advocate, rule-breaker, and dreamer. Author of Faith Shift: Finding Your Way Forward When Everything You Believe is Coming Apart, she’s been a great support to the faith shifting community. If you feel like a spiritual refugee, a church burnout, or a freedom seeker, you’ll want to listen to the podcast I did with Kathy.
MICHAEL HARDIN - Michael is a gifted speaker, author, and “Dude of Theology,” an appellation he wears as a mark of distinction. He’s the Co-Founder and Executive Director of Preaching Peace with a passion for theology, church history, biblical studies, and the work of Rene Girard. He has been a hospital chaplain, a failed pastor, and a distinguished guest on The Spiritual Brewpub Podcast. We hit it off when I found out he was a fan of the 70s alternative rock band, Yes. He is the author of several books, including The Jesus-Driven Life: Reconnecting Humanity with Jesus.
SUSAN COTTRELL - Susan Cottrell founded FreedHearts after finding herself having to decide between the evangelical church and her LGBTQ daughter. In FreedHearts, she and her husband Rob come alongside parents to help them understand their lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender children, keep their kids safe, and their family strong. They help those in the LGBTQ community deal with family, religious and community wounds and find chosen family. They help those in the non-affirming church be more inclusive. Hear Susan on my podcast.
BARBARA SYMONS - I thoroughly enjoyed interviewing Barbara on my podcast after I read her eye-opening book, Escaping Christianity and Finding Christ, about her journey out of evangelical/charismatic Christianity into a mystic awareness of Jesus. She was indoctrinated over decades into a "schizophrenic Christianity" and ultimately went through a sometimes painful, but an incredibly freeing deprogramming process.
JULIE FERWERDA - Author, all-around hell raiser, and guest on my podcast, Julie is best known for her book, Raising Hell: Christianity’s Most Controversial Doctrine Put Under Fire. We met ten years ago when she commented on my first blog and we quickly discovered our similar journeys deconstructing conservative Christianity, including the doctrine of eternal damnation. Listen to the podcast and also check out the Raising Hell Book Group.